Zigging-zagging, principles of evaluating roles, how to milk the cow and more | Sofie Lehrmann, Founder, MilkMoo, Fractional CMO

This transcript has been lightly edited. 

Mita Mandawker (00:03):

Hello, and welcome back to Ctrl + Alt + Marketing. 

Mita Mandawker (00:05):

I am your host, Mita Mandawker. 

Mita Mandawker (00:07):

In case you missed our last episode with Sofie Lehrmann, founder of MilkMoo, hit pause and go check it out. It's packed with great insights on career and marketing that you don't want to miss. My favorite part of the last episode was learning how Sofie zigged and zagged across different industries, proving that there is no single right way of building a successful marketing career. In this episode, she talks about how she prioritizes culture and leadership when choosing opportunities, her philosophy of milking the cow, and so much more. So let's dive into the final part of Sofie's story. 

Mita Mandawker (00:47):

So, Sofie, so far, listening to your career journey and everything that you've done, one thing has been very evident. Your journey or your career path has not been a straight line. You have zigged, you have zagged. You have moved across multiple industries, but one thing has been constant. I wouldn't say one thing, but a few things. You know, they have been like, your core strengths, like branding, GTM, rebranding, as you put it earlier, like, you've done quite a bit of that. Like, a few of these things have remained constant, irrespective of any place that you've worked at or any company that you've worked at. Now, one thing is how has this non-linear approach contributed to your career growth and also shaped your perspective as a marketer? 

Mita Mandawker (01:34):

Because there is a lot of conventional wisdom in, you know, having a great deal of industry expertise or, you know, just working in certain types of companies because it helps you build that in-depth knowledge, in-depth expertise, rather than, you know, doing those zigzags. I would love to understand that, you know, how's your perspective been? Because you've lived through that journey for the last 14 years. So, you know, how has that been? 

Sofie Lehrmann (02:06):

It's been exciting. A lot of questioning, you know, and self-doubt as well, because I had to start as a beginner, but, you know, beginner in a new industry beginner, you know, moving from a big company to a small company, working for an international company, then coming over to a very French company, you know, so adapting my, you know, cultural, cultural way of being, it's been very enriching. And I'm happy today that I haven't been following just one path because it's giving me so many insights into different marketing techniques, different strategies as well, and different people, how they perceive things, how they build a team, how they organize work. So that's another reason why I'm grateful for this sick second in my career: I've been exposed to diverse ways of working, diverse cultures, and diverse people, you know. 

Sofie Lehrmann (03:46):

So for younger people, choosing sometimes the uncomfortable, what you don't know will expand your horizons. Most definitely. I've been, you know, insecure as well. But that's why you learn, and that's why you hone your skills and fail. I have failed a lot. Even though on my CV it might look like, oh, one straight line, it most definitely has not been a straight line because of people. That's one because of the market and what they're demanding from marketing today, and because you all the time have to stay ahead of the curve in terms of building your skills, building your network. And I would say there's no receipt, there's no perfect receipt for the perfect career. It's personal. 

Sofie Lehrmann (04:49):

For some people, it might be the straight line staying with the big companies all your life, and for some, it might be, you know, jumping, jump hopping as they say, you know, from, you know, one start to another startup, and that's perfectly fine as long as you're doing it with a conscious around. This is what makes me most happy. And I would say for the younger marketeers, staying in the same comfort zone and just being, taking the very secure path might be, you know, appealing at the start, but it would be very sad to wake up 30 years later and be like, oh, I regret I didn't try this, oh, I regret that I didn't explore other ways of doing things in my career. It's taking the jump sometimes and not being sure how you land or where you land. 

Sofie Lehrmann (06:03):

That will lead to more clarity because often we're just in this tunnel and just be like, you know, just one straight line. And it's, you know, that at least that's been my experience. And I also see that with younger people they're much more curious and much more, you know, yeah, curious about, you know, what are the different possibilities. It's not like we're living in the sixties or seventies anymore, you know, where the career was just like, oh, you get a steady job if you work for the public as a servant, you know, that's even better because of stability. The most important thing is that you can be content with what you have chosen in life and be okay with the fact that you will fail because, oh, you will. 

Mita Mandawker (07:01):

There is no growth without failure. You learn from them. I mean you learn from success, you learn from failure. And you need to have a balance of both to, you know, maybe stay a little humble. 

Sofie Lehrmann (07:14):

Don't take things personal. It's so easy to take things personal in the marketing world. You know, like it's. It's very. Don't take anything personal. It's just marketing. I'm sorry to put it like this. It's just marketing. 

Mita Mandawker (07:30):

It's one of the most humbling professions in the world. 

Sofie Lehrmann (07:36):

Yes, it is.

Mita Mandawker (07:37):

Something new coming up every few years right now; I would even say a few months, there's something new happening. You have to stay ahead of the curve. You have to learn something new. You can't just bank on the skills that you had, you know, when you started your career. Sorry, that's not going to happen. There are people who are going to think that, you know, they know how to do your job better than you do.

Sofie Lehrmann (08:02):

Yes, exactly. And you will only get exposed to that when you change the environment, and you change the, you know, that. That's why you change how you work with other people. And I get insights to other ways of thinking, you know, and that's. I would say that's the beauty of startups, but also some bigger companies, you know, that some of them are very diverse. And I'm very conscious about developing skills and ways of working and being self-critical in terms of the processes and the organization that they have in place. So you can generalize, obviously.

Mita Mandawker (08:52):

I think some fantastic takeaways from this one as well. I think it's very important to know that it's okay to follow your own path and create your own path. It's okay. Just do what you know works for you. Do it for your growth; do it for, you know, what brings you happiness and fulfillment. I think that's the thing. But, like, before we get into your new innings, as the founder of MilkMoo, I would want to understand one thing. You, earlier on, in our conversation, when we spoke earlier, you mentioned that you had very clear set of principles that you, principles. Should I say, or should I say like a mental model, or should I say, like a framework that you always have in mind when you're evaluating new opportunities. 

Mita Mandawker (09:41):

When it came to your career at like a, you know, four set of principles, four set of pillars. Can we talk a little more about it? And how's that helped you take, like, good career decisions? Because it's in effect even now when you took the decision to move on from an in-house marketing leadership role to doing your own thing to starting your own agency. So, let's dive into that. 

Sofie Lehrmann (10:08):

Yes. So I have three core principles. Whenever I have evaluated a new job, is that the first one is culture. It's not salary. It's always been culture that's been coming first, you know, is this a place where I can see myself grow? Is this a place where I can, you know, I feel that I would be a valuable player and is this a place where people can be who they are? And so that's definitely one of, you know, the most important criteria of principle for me. I would say that was not the case when I joined the bigger company. That was more the prestigious, you know, element. But that, you know, it's also culture, you know, salary, you know, of course it's important, you know, like, it. Let's be honest, you know, it's not like, yeah, it's only culture. Hell no. 

Sofie Lehrmann (11:26):

If there's a great culture and a shitty salary, yeah, no, thank you, no, buy, it's, that's for sure. But that's for the bigger positions. The smaller, the smaller positions. Like in a, you know, when you're a marketing assistant or marketing manager, you make a compromise. I make compromises, you know, when I was younger and a junior marketer, because you just need to get in, show what you're capable of doing the hard work, and then you will get the reward. You know, you can't start at maximum and then expect it just to go up and go up. You know, you need to prove yourself. So salary, most definitely. And, you know, that's another principle. And I, having a very good, in the startup world, having a great feeling with the CEO. It is so important when you pick a job in the startup world. 

Sofie Lehrmann (12:40):

Is it someone that you can see yourself collaborate with? Is it someone that will listen to you? Is it someone who believes in the power of marketing? And is it someone that you will grow with? No, but please know that you can also sometimes make a mistake and misjudge people. It can start out as a crush and then, you know, sometimes the crush doesn't last. That happens as well. But I think it's a very important element when choosing your career that you feel that you have a CEO that you're inspired from, who has a vision for the company so important, who doesn't only talk about numbers, but also talks about the people, what company he wants to build tomorrow, because they can definitely help you build your career. I wouldn't say break your career, stupid thing. I read that on LinkedIn the other day. 

Sofie Lehrmann (13:55):

Yeah, they can help break or make your career. Yeah, they can definitely pick temporarily a stop to your career. But they will never break your career. That's your responsibility. That's your own responsibility. Except if you've been stealing stuff or stuff like that, either. But that's. But, yes, those are the three principles, I would say, or three elements driving my decisions in when choosing a job. You know, culture, salary, the CEO. 

Mita Mandawker (14:36):

Perfect. And I think it makes a lot of sense to look at any role with that sort of, you know, a filter definitely helps. And thank you. It was very real. Let's. Let's normalize looking at salary. It's a very important aspect of everything that we do. At the end of the day, we all have bills to pay, so, yes, we do. 

Sofie Lehrmann (14:59):

It is important. But it's also important not to be like, it's. It's. It's finding the right balance because I do see some of the younger or the juniors who are like, yeah, I expect this to sell. I'm just like, who do you think you are? You know? Like, it's a. Yeah, I have. I'm all about self-confidence. I'm all about pay me what I'm worth. But when you're starting out, there's a trait. You are paid for what you have done and what you know, your experience. So if you come into a company with serious experience or one or two years of experience, don't expect to get, like, a high salary from the get-go, I would say. And also your. Your reward is to get more insights into how a company works. To get your hands dirty. 

Sofie Lehrmann (15:54):

Do the hustling, do the hard work, and then you can start to say, look, I create those results. Look, this is the impact that I had on the company. Now show me the money. You know, that's how you neglect it. 

Mita Mandawker (16:09):

That's how I love it. Now show me the money. Just imagine a marketer's version doing, like, a rap song on this, or maybe cv in hand for a resume. Oh, God, it would be so funny. But I think I completely agree with this. In the initial stages of career, it's very important to optimize for experience, because once you have that experience, once you have those skills, the potential for you earning money,2xs, 3xs, like, you know, with the time duration, because you have those skills and what it takes to actually go ahead and, you know, demand that sort of remuneration, salary and everything else. So I think that's. That definitely makes sense. So right now, Sofie, let's. Let's get into the MilkMoo chapter. I'm very curious about how you came up with that name. 

Mita Mandawker (17:16):

And also, what was it that prompted you to make this transition? For example, you were doing well in your roles earlier in marketing, you know, being a marketing leader and working with startups. But what prompted that whole decision to, you know, transition into doing your own thing, doing your own agency, and would love to get the inside story of this name. MilkMoo. 

Sofie Lehrmann (17:42):

Thank you. Yes. So I was, I left the company because, and that's in all honesty, you know because we didn't meet some of the quarterly revenue goals. And then marketing is to blame often, you know, nevertheless, a blessing in disguise because it gave me a chance to go, you know, to explore something that I have wanted for a long time, but I was too afraid to do, to create something on my own. So while I'm creating another project on the sideline, like a business, not just, you know, just the marketing advisory part, I said, well, I need to have some money and what am I really good at and what do I also love, you know, the whole iki triangle? And I decided just to give it a go. I actually applied for another position as a brand director. In another role. 

Sofie Lehrmann (19:01):

No, another brand, sorry. As a head of marketing in another scale up was the, you know, final candidate with another one. Didn't get it. And it was just like, yeah, that was a sign I'm jumping on the Sofie 2.0 wagon. And in one day, I created my website, which I need to redo, and didn't think much more about it. I just did it. It was just like, it's now or never. It's now or never. And also, like I was tired of it, I was not sure if I really wanted to do the whole onboarding, you know, like KPI settings with the teams. And I just wanted to be, to have a new experience. I don't know how long I will be doing this for, but now helping to empower startups on my terms, meaning with what I believe they should do, and focusing on rebranding projects. 

Sofie Lehrmann (20:12):

Also, coming in as a Fractional CMO to help do the strategy work, give overview, big picture, and help prioritize work as well because that's one of the pain points in startups and scale-ups. They're doing too much at the same time getting lost in transition. So my real vision for building my company and being alone is to build the life that I really always wanted to build something for me and now also for my daughter, you know, just myself and, you know, have a job that I'm happy about and where I can, where I feel I empower people and business or businesses. So that's my real reason behind it. MilkMoo. Well, MilkMoo, it's because it's something that I've always used as a term, not MilkMoo, but milk the cow. Milk the cow is something that I've used for over a decade now. 

Sofie Lehrmann (21:41):

Like, yeah, let's milk the cow, meaning now we have a huge e-book, let's milk the cow, meaning repurpose it. Let's chop it up. Let's make, you know, a sector focus, a spotlight, you know, from this thought leadership. Let's do a social media campaign using that ebook. You know, let's milk the cow with what we already have. Let's milk the cow with the great product that you have in place, but you, it's not on the market yet. Right? So the name came about from what I do best which is to milk the cow, meaning, you know, empowering, or wouldn't even say empowering. Milking a potential to its fullest. That's what milk the cow or milk moo means, you know, milk your potential to its fullest. And that can be encoding for, you know, for younger talents. 

Sofie Lehrmann (22:52):

It can be for businesses, you know because everyone has potential, but not everyone is able to milk it to the fullest. So that's why I called it MilkMoo. Yeah, to milk the potential for tech startups and their teams and over 2025 and, you know, the next year, I'll probably expand it a bit, going into more coaching as well, from a business perspective. Also, for younger, you know, younger marketing talents. It's not something that is concrete now, but it sits well with that mission to milk the cow. 

Mita Mandawker (23:45):

I love the story, I love the thought behind the name. And to be very honest, Sofie, when I first dropped on your LinkedIn profile and I saw the name, I was like, ooh, wow, this is so impressive. It kind of sticks with you because it's not a fuddy duddy name. It's, it really stands out. So I went, I visited the profile, I saw your website as well. It's been a while since I've seen your website, since I just keep on dming you, but that name has a real stickiness to it. So I think meaning to it, you. 

Sofie Lehrmann (24:23):

Know, a meaning both. 

Mita Mandawker (24:26):

And I had a feeling that it might be on similar lines, the idea behind that name. So he was sharing this entire, you know, backstory, or the thought behind that name kind of really, you know, just hammers it in. So I think it's a great name and the kind of vision that you have for the company that you're trying to build, for the life that you're trying to build. Sounds very inspiring. I think this is just an observation that I have. But all the turmoil that we see in the market right now, especially with startups, especially with marketing leadership, it's kind of translating into a lot of marketers considering this sort of, you know, solopreneurship route right now. You're a solopreneur. I'm sure that you will have a team later on. 

Mita Mandawker (25:18):

I don't know what vision you have for your company, but it's making a lot of marketers think about doing something for themselves because. 

Sofie Lehrmann (25:28):

And beyond marketing. 

Mita Mandawker (25:30):

Yeah, and beyond marketing as well. 

Sofie Lehrmann (25:32):

It's a movement. This whole creator economy is just exploding. It's exploding right now. People are not happy in their work, you know, and it, after Covid, they've discovered there's more to life than just going to the office, getting your paycheck, and that's it. They want more from life. And I really hope for the younger generation that they will be able to seize that opportunity, create new companies, do more innovation with that new mindset, you know, because for my generation, for my parents' generation, we most certainly didn't have those opportunities that the younger people have today to create something and have impact quickly because there's no limits today. There's no boundaries to be connected to someone that you admire, someone that you would like to talk with. Look at LinkedIn. You know, I can speak with a huge influencer. 

Sofie Lehrmann (26:46):

I can just message her if I want, you know, take her in the post if I wanted to notice me, you know, those kinds of things. It's short-lived, that's for sure. But, you know, there are definitely no boundaries today to create the life and career that you want. 

Mita Mandawker (27:07):

We need to say this more often. We need to read this more often. We need to probably put it on our work desk. What you just mentioned that, you know, there are no boundaries, and there are no limits to what you can do. I mean, it's, and I think one thing which also, like Covid, really hit home was life is very short-lived. You never know what can happen to you. You don't want to have regrets. A lot of us lost a lot of near and dear ones. Now this gets into a different territory. But the whole idea is it brought about a lot of introspection into the way in which we were leading our lives. It changed the way in which we work. And, I mean, why not take advantage of the new set of ways in which we can work. 

Mita Mandawker (27:53):

And also, with AI coming in, like it's so easy to build. I wouldn't say so easy, but it's still easier to build products even if you are like not an engineer. If you don't come from a tech background, there are a lot of no-code options. The bottom line is it's the creator economy is like really in. And I think with all the volatility, we are going to see a lot of marketing founders. I wouldn't call them marketing founders, but basically founders from marketing background, you know, probably kicking in the market with some great products and some great services. Yes, MilkMoo is one of those. 

Sofie Lehrmann (28:37):

Exactly. But I would say it's also like, because there's no boundaries. Let's say, tomorrow, you want to become a CMO. Nothing stops you from saying that you are a CMO to plant that seed as a CMO or, you know, whatever you want to be. You know, you build your brain the way you want. So I know a young talent. She doesn't have that much experience, but she has a lot of confidence. Like she has so much confidence showing up, and she knows everything. She might not have the experience, but she doesn't give a shit. She's just going out there faking it until she's until she will make it, you know? And I know that some people are saying, yeah, but they don't have the experience. 

Sofie Lehrmann (29:35):

Yeah, it's only half-assed, you know, I can only applaud those people having the courage to shape their life and their career as they want, putting themselves out there, not being afraid of, you know, having people, making fun of them. At least they're trying, you know, and also there's nothing definitive that person might turn around in one year and say, you know what, I approached this wrong. And I think that's very important for the younger generation to have the mindset. Nothing is definitive. You know, it's. Nothing is definitive if you choose one route. A, B, C, D. Yes, do it wisely, but don't just stay in the fucking same lane just because you're too afraid to choose B, C, D, and E. No, it's. 

Mita Mandawker (30:35):

Maybe even if it's said, or maybe even a Y. Maybe even a Z or a Y. I mean, it depends exactly. 

Sofie Lehrmann (30:43):

Or even beyond the alphabet, who knows? In private life and in professional lives, nothing is definitive. It really is. I know it's such a cliche to say, but it's so important to say it, because often when we choose a career, often when we choose, oh, should we do this or not do this, we're so afraid to make the wrong choice. We can undo that choice as long as we stay close to our core values and be a good human being. I know it's such a cliche to say, too, but it's so true. 

Mita Mandawker (31:26):

I don't think it's cliche at all. This is plain truth. This is, this is the reality of life. And it's applicable in life. It's applicable in career. It's applicable in every possible instance that you can think of. Great. Thanks, Sofie, for that. Wonderful, you know, reflection on reflection, observation, commentary on life, on career. And I would say it's not just applicable to the younger talent that you spoke about. I think it's applicable to everyone, irrespective of where we are in our career journey. I have, like, moving on to the final question. I would love to understand, as you reflect on the journey that you've had over the past 14 years, what are some of the most valuable lessons that you've learned. 

Mita Mandawker (32:17):

And I ask this of all my guests: what would be the single most important piece of advice that you would give to someone who's just starting in their marketing career or someone who's already, you know, in it? 

Sofie Lehrmann (32:29):

Yes. So, the best career advice I would give to younger marketers is that nothing is set in stone. Never assume that just because you chose one kind of career, this will define the rest of your life and your career path. Never assume that people are specific way when you don't really know them. And never assume that you know everything. You know, be humble and curious and open because nothing is set in stone. That's for sure. Also, if you zigzag in your career, that's the best thing that can happen to you because it will always give you a new direction or the redirection that you need. Keep exploring. And the more you explore, the more you will discover about other people and yourself. So, never assume something is set in stone. 

Sofie Lehrmann (33:54):

That would be my advice to my daughter and to younger people. And that's also what I told teams across the years. Nothing is set in stone. Go ahead, take that job. You know, we would love you to stay here, but, you know, and don't be afraid to take that jump because it's, you know, don't assume that this will break your career. Just because you stayed here for six months. You know, it's not we, you know, I don't take it personally. You know, like, go for it and make the jump to what makes you feel good and how you want to build your career. So, yes, nothing is set in stone. 

Mita Mandawker (34:39):

Great advice. Could not have wrapped it up on a better note. And I think just listening to your entire journey and listening to everything that you had to share, from your experiences working in different setups to right now, you know, starting your own business, has been highly enlightening. I think it's going to be an extremely interesting episode for anyone who's already in marketing or who's probably in similar shoes. Maybe they are working at a big walk. Maybe they are considering, you know, maybe they want to try out something new, or maybe there's someone who wants to do their own thing. I think your episode is going to provide so much inspiration and, you know, food for thought for them. 

Sofie Lehrmann (35:26):

So thank you. 

Mita Mandawker (35:29):

Sofie, thank you so much for taking the time to come today and, you know, share everything. I wouldn't say sharing, I would say answering all my questions and, you know, being so patient with everything that, you know, I had to ask. Thank you so much. It was lovely having you as a guest on the show. 

Sofie Lehrmann (35:51):

Thank you, Mita, for inviting me and having me. And, you know, I love you all. Mission to help other marketers. Marketers Help Marketers, and especially the younger generation, about sharing across borders. I think that's fantastic, and I think it's something that is much needed in this space to give more guidance to younger marketeers and not just be our own little bundle of senior marketers. So thank you.