Lessons from marketing at MNCs vs. startups | Sofie Lehrmann, Founder, MilkMoo, fCMO

This transcript has been lightly edited. 

Mita Mandawker (00:03):

Hello and welcome to Ctrl + Alt + Marketing. I am your host, Mita Mandawker. My guest today is Sofie Lehrman, a marketing leader with an impressive and an equally interesting 14 year career journey. Sofie started her career in market research, and then she spent some time working at Big Four and later worked her way up to the CMO role, working at various startups and scale ups. Currently, Sofie is the founder of MilkMoo, an agency dedicated to helping tech startups with their marketing needs. Whether you are a seasoned marketing professional or someone who is just starting out, Sofie's practical advice and insights will inspire and equip you to tackle and flourish in your own marketing journey. So let's dive into part one of Sofie's episode. 

Mita Mandawker (00:54):

Thank you, Sofie, for joining me today. I'm so excited to have you here and looking forward to our conversation. So welcome to Ctrl + Alt + Marketing. 

Sofie Lehrmann (01:03):

Thank you, Mita. Me too. I'm so happy to be here. Thank you for the invitation. 

Mita Mandawker (01:09):

I am looking forward to this conversation for quite some time. We had such a blast during the pre-interview that I can't wait to dig deep into everything that we talked about at that point of time. But let's do one thing. Let's start at the beginning. Can you share a little bit about your early life and any experiences that really stand out and which had a big impact on shaping you as who you are today? 

Sofie Lehrmann (01:35):

Yes. So let's start from the very beginning because it has been a defining, you know, moment for me as person, but also for my career, I believe. So I was adopted from South Korea, adopted by, you know, danish parents where I grew up. And I don't have any relationship to South Korea, nor my background, nor my biological mom, because I was an orphan. So I always grew up wanting to be someone because I had to believe that I was like a nobody. So, you know, during my childhood, but also my adulthood, early adulthood, I was seeking education, but also activities that would make me look good and make me be someone. 

Sofie Lehrmann (02:41):

And it was only, you know, lately or over the last couple of years that I've started to realize that's not that important to be, you know, someone for someone else, but to be, obviously someone for yourself. So, in terms of my career, I had very ambitious parents who wanted me to do well. So I went to all of the fancy schools, but I wanted to be a musician. So what I did in my early twenties was to move to Paris and become a self student on my master, which was unheard of from the business school that I did. The only condition was that I was, you know, required to come back and do my exams, which I did. 

Sofie Lehrmann (03:36):

And on the sideline I was doing recordings in London and in Paris, you know, and I had no limitations in terms of thinking that would be possible. And I did it. I got my master's degree. I recorded so many different, you know, recordings for me with different artists and so on. And then I got scared. Scared in terms of, oh, I might, you know, be failing in the music. It's much more secure to take the, you know, the security route or let's say the, you know, the comfortable life. So. And I also need the money. So with my master's degree, I got my first job. I always worked since I was 14, but it's like the first real job, let's say, in a market research company, working for consumer products and retail and pharmaceuticals, mostly around qualitative interviews. 

Sofie Lehrmann (04:49):

So here I organized field work and organized also administrative stuff. And it was a great experience being so close to big brands and clients and their first priority. Whenever they were going to launch a new product or a new campaign, they were always seeking consumer insights before. And side note, that's obviously something that we can learn in the B2B world. You know, why invest thousands, sometimes millions, in campaigns if you don't know if it would resonate with your ideal consumer or customer? But we'll get back to that later. And then, because I wanted to be someone, I, you know, after one and a half year, I moved over to management consulting, where I stayed for seven years. And it was with the motivation to be surrounded by excellence, which I was personal drive, obviously, to feel I was someone. 

Sofie Lehrmann (06:08):

And those two things, you know, gave me so much. But mostly being surrounded by excellence, you know, working on big projects, very tight deadlines and, you know, having an incredible team, international team. And I actually started out as a marketing assistant. It wasn't like, oh, here I come, you know, junior marketer or junior whatever. I started out very low. So I was booking travels for people. I was, you know, organizing smaller events. You know, I wouldn't say low value tasks because they're not, but, you know, it's not very prestigious, but I was very driven to not stay in that position because I wanted to be a someone. So after even five months, I moved up to be a marketing associate a year after marketing supervisor and then marketing assistant director and then manager. 

Sofie Lehrmann (07:35):

And it was my personal drive, obviously, but also my natural curiosity to always seek more than the status quo. And it also helps to be surrounded by great people and mentors such an, well, I wouldn't say underrated skill, but you can only do so much on your own. But if you don't have people who see you, then you can, you know, then the result won't be the same, at least not when you're younger, from my experience. So I had two great mentors there who pushed me to go on big projects. To present in front of a lot of people made me believe that I did the work, but they were actually just setting up the environment and great conditions for me to shine. 

Sofie Lehrmann (08:49):

So when younger, ambitious people and marketeers, you know, they're looking to, for, you know, for the job, definitely stay curious, you know, always propose how you can be of value to a project. Be pushy without being arrogant, very important, and surround yourself with good people, but also people who will give you hard feedback. Don't believe that you can do everything on your own with your brilliance. That will absolutely lead you to nowhere. And then after seven years, I wanted to try something new and also became a mom. So my priorities shifted and I started in the startup environment and I've stayed there since and that transition was very challenging and I have grown so much, you know, from making that jump. 

Mita Mandawker (10:09):

Think such interesting background. I never, I did not have an idea that you were doing music and you were studying for your masters at the same time. Like you're doing actual live shows and you were doing this. It's so unique and it's so different. 

Sofie Lehrmann (10:29):

Is it? Because I believe. It's funny though, because I have so many in my, you know, in my friend circle who have done music a lot, but maybe not recordings the way that I have done it, but, you know, having interest, you know, where they earn a bit of side money as musicians, even artists, whatever it may be, but thank you. Thank you. 

Mita Mandawker (11:07):

You're the second musician on the show. 

Sofie Lehrmann (11:11):

And it's funny, you know, in marketing I meet more and more people who also have a music background, and then there's the other marketers who have a scientific background, you know, and that's the beauty of marketing, that you have this diverse pool of talents and it's also what you see. There's the branding, creative people, and then there's the only data-driven people. If you're able to marinate those two worlds, oh, you will be unstoppable, honey. You know, it's. And both is something that you can learn. Attitude, on the other hand, is something that you're born with, you know, the grit. 

Mita Mandawker (11:58):

Yeah. And it can definitely be worked on for sure. But I think one thing I've realized while doing this show, I'm getting sidetracked a little bit. But marketers, at least the marketers I've interviewed on the show and a bunch of folks that I have also spoken with offline, very creative people, like, they will be into writing, and I'm not talking about, like, writing on LinkedIn type of writing. They actually would be writing, you know, some are writing screenplays for movies, like trying to practice, you know, writing over there. Some of them are writing horror stories. There's a whole, my last guest, he actually is like a Spotify. He has a Spotify-featured album. It's, it's wild. 

Mita Mandawker (12:45):

Like, people are, marketers are doing like a whole bunch of interesting things, but I think they have this whole creative bend or that creative thirst that needs to be, you know, satiated in some way. And they all have like some or the other sort of creative outlets. So I shouldn't say I'm surprised that you also have something. But it's very interesting to know that you were doing two things at the same time. And you also went on to actually try out different things in music before, like, you know, taking a very practical decision. 

Mita Mandawker (13:18):

The one thing I realized when I was listening to you, and which also was a part of our conversation first, was you realize that external validation does not define one's career, because in your own story that you have, or your own journey, you've seen it define quite a early formative years of your career. So how does that desire to fit in, you know, impact those ambitions, and how do you actually go ahead and make that sort of a change as well? Because I think for you, that change happened when you became a mom. Your priorities changed, and you also started thinking of things a little differently. At that point of time, you had spent around, I think, seven or nine odd years, working in bigger setups, being on the market, research and marketing and management consulting side of things? 

Mita Mandawker (14:08):

So how does that really impact, you know, the career? And let's talk about the startup, a part of your journey as well. For you, from a very structured setup to the very rollercoaster kind of a world of startups, it's a huge, massive change. So let's talk about how did you make that transition? Because at that point of time, you had like, a great amount of experience. You had spent, you know, time in a very different setup. So how, what were some challenges that you faced? How did you learn to adapt and prove yourself in a very new setup? 

Sofie Lehrmann (14:47):

Very good question. So to start with your first question in terms of how I make that realization, but also the jump. I always had this pit pool like add to, let's get it, let's go. Some people would maybe have called me aggressive or a bitch, you know, at times. No, it's true. It's true. And you obviously learn from that, good and bad. So when you work in bigger companies with huge budgets, huge teams, prestigious company, you become to some extent a little bit arrogant. And then when you switch to something that has nothing at all and also where you're a beginner, then you become humbled. You know, it's humbling to go from everything, business class, whatever, to go, yeah, now you're flying economy. Yeah, sorry, you don't have 3 million budget. What you do have is that you have 30k for a year. Great. 

Sofie Lehrmann (16:12):

So that's humbling. But also being surrounded by people who don't have, you know, a fly ass academic background, but who are very brilliant, who also have the polls on what's new, next-generation technologies, where some of the bigger companies are lacking because, you know, they have those outdated legacy systems and old way of thinking sometimes. So I decided to make the move because I wanted to try something new, but also because over my career I've always had goals. So my goal when I was finished, as, you know, my master's degree, I was, okay, I need to get a job and I want to be in an international setup, something with consumers. That's all I knew. And I need to get it like next month, this job. 

Sofie Lehrmann (17:18):

So I did because I worked only on that goal to get a job, you know, within that month. And I did. And then my next goal, but I always wanted, I always knew I wanted to be part of a prestigious company, was to be, I'm going to work for a prestigious company. So that's what I did. And then at the prestigious company, I was like, okay, I want to become a marketing director or head of something. So my next goal was to have more of a leadership position but in a smaller setup. That's why I also moved to startups and scale ups. And what I learned from that jump is that you only know so much until you don't have. Look, I knew nothing about CRM rebooting because we had a team who only did that, you know, I knew nothing about. 

Sofie Lehrmann (18:28):

I did, but not how you set it up like LinkedIn ads and all of that. I only knew theory of it. And that's the difference between big companies where you advise, do a lot of nice presentations, do huge programs with huge budgets to the nitty gritty in startups, and you have to do the work, you have to roll up your sleeves. So for any young marketers listening to this, that's the condition. What you do is that you hustle and that you work your ass off as a beginner and you show curiosity for people and for the different projects that you have. So I had to sort of go back to that mindset again when I started in the startup world, being a beginner. 

Mita Mandawker (19:31):

Yeah, it was exactly like, you know, having your new innings as a marketer, like new innings and being very hands on despite being at a senior role in a leadership role at a startup. But I think some great takeaways, especially understanding how, I wouldn't say exactly marketing, but how does working look like in a big company, in a very multinational kind of a setup versus a very startup and a very new company sort of a setup? Because a lot of folks, you know, like you mentioned, in the initial part, it's not always about chasing shiny things. It's also about understanding, you know, what sort of setup really works for you and also what are your own goals. 

Mita Mandawker (20:17):

I think one reason why you always wanted to work at bigger companies, initial, in the initial part of your career was you had a very different reason. Like you wanted to, you know, prove something. Then your priorities changed you, there was deeper introspection happening, and you realized, okay, this is, these are my career goals. This is probably like a better setup to achieve it. I want to change, I want to switch up things. I want to learn something new. So I think, great. 

Sofie Lehrmann (20:44):

Yes. 

Mita Mandawker (20:45):

So take away from there. I could, that I could find. 

Sofie Lehrmann (20:51):Yes, and you're absolutely right. And it's also, I would also add, you know, I knew that I wanted to be part of an international environment because I was Danish, don't look Danish. And I wanted to be part of a setup where I felt that I could recognize myself in terms of appearance, background as well. What big companies have that smaller startups don't is, you know, obviously budget process, something that startups do not have time to do. But if you want to scale, then you need to have scalable processes, you know, across the board, you know, manual work. Oh, let's test this. Let's do this. Oh, onboarding. What's that? It will just be one day onboarding. You know, it's, that's what it gives you. Bigger companies. The big picture. The big picture. And that there's different steps that are required, which I think is great. 

Sofie Lehrmann (22:09):

And to some extent, not great, most definitely is not applicable for early startups. But if you're a young marketeer and you want to have a good, solid foundation for your career, yes, big companies are great, but I would actually recommend them if they can get an internship at, you know, at a smaller company. You know, I had that and I also started out in a smaller company, even though the clients were big, the brands that we work with in the market research company, because you're able to get the best of both worlds. And after that you can decide, what world do I want to, you know, to be a part of? And if there's one thing I would advise to younger marketeers in terms of small versus big, don't listen to your parents. 

Sofie Lehrmann (23:19):

Your parents will most often advise you to go with the bigger shops because it's safe, you know, it's prestigious, it makes them look good. Oh, we did good. As parents, choose what makes you feel good. Choose what is aligned with your values as a person. If you don't know, well, try both of you know, both of the worlds and you will discover it. You might also discover it's not even for you, this corporate world. Maybe you want to try something on your own. Nevertheless, try it out. And seriously, those parents, it's your life. They will not build your career moving forward. 

Mita Mandawker (24:13):

I think that's great advice, especially coming from the fact that, I mean, when you're younger and when you're more impressionable, when you don't have a lot of life experiences, it's very tempting to listen to what your parents are saying and they want the best for you. But at the end of the day, you have to decide what's the best for you. You have to try out different things, see what works for you. It's, it's just like marketing. You have to experiment to see what works for, just for your career. When you're trying to find challenge fitment over here, you're trying to find your career fitment. That's it. Okay, great. I think. 

Mita Mandawker (24:51):

Exactly, Sofie, loving the conversation so far, especially, like, I think you've already shared quite a bit of, you know, great advice for marketers who are just starting out their career, or even marketers who are, you know, already in that journey. And maybe they need, like, a little bit of nudge. Okay, I want to next move on to your startup, part of your, you know, career. So you've worked at startups, you worked at scale ups, and you've also, I think, before you left your last role, like, before your new innings, as you know, the founder of MilkMoo, you were also the CMO at a startup.

Mita Mandawker (25:28):

So I would want to understand how does it look like, you know, leading brand and content at startups because that's how you started your startup marketing journey to, you know, eventually going on to lead, you know, the entire marketing as a CMO. Also one very important aspect of it. How does revenue ownership look like at that level? And you, and you started your career in a very different, you know, setup altogether. You have your roots in market research. So for you to navigate that journey in startups, how was it like? So let's talk about the startup chapter.

Sofie Lehrmann (26:04):

I joined scale up in series E. So at that time it was one of the biggest, you know, unique ones in France. And I was hired as a head of brand and content in a bigger team and my responsibilities were to do brand management and do content creation. So one pages, brochures, sales, discovery decks, and for the brand management part make a brand strategy for integrating 72 partners to be rebranded, which was a huge project and it was very difficult to marinate the two because it's two roles and that's actually what you have at startups or scale-ups. You often don't just have one role, oh, you're just a brand manager. Oh, you're just a content manager. Oh, you're everything and more. So I really had to spend my time with regards to content but also brand management. 

Sofie Lehrmann (27:34):

And what I discovered in that scale up is that the brand management part and the convincing part of having those partners, you know, rebranding, so changing their logo to the logo that we had was not possible without something, without a trade. And at that time I had to dig really deep into say, how can I convince partners to rebrand? And all they care about is revenue. What do we get in return besides your fancy logo? So I dig a bit deeper and I discovered that they had no visibilities in terms of the leads that were coming into the website. 

Sofie Lehrmann (28:36):

And so I helped set up a scoring system which was completely out of scope, you know, from brand and content, but it was part of the content and the brand, you know, because it was helping us to measure and identify different companies looking at the content and coming into the website from different campaigns and then go to the partners and say, look, from Estonia you have 15 people from this and this company. So obviously then find the right tools where you can identify you with API and all of that good stuff. So my role suddenly became very digital and data orientated and not just like, oh, let's be creative. Let's do this little article or this little thought leadership. So just because your title says something does not mean that you will do exactly that.

Sofie Lehrmann (29:48):

And that's what you do at startups, you roll up your sleeves and you get the job done. And you need to think beyond just the obvious to make something work, because there's no defined processes, you know, in place. So, yes, and after that I moved on to other startups. Where was the head of marketing. So leading and building different teams would focus on lead generation, notably, you know, where's the leads, leads. And I composed a team with CRM expert in the second startup that joined content and brand, also business developers. And it was great. There was not a lot of brand in the start because the founders were like, oh, we just need to have leads, so just go out, find out what you need to do something. 

Sofie Lehrmann (31:00):

And it worked on the short term, but then we had to realize, okay, what's the actual strategy behind it? What's the issues that our ideal customers are facing? And that's where I could take from my previous experience. So we set up different customer interviews with the ideal buyer personas in collaboration with the product design team. And then we interviewed around 2025 people. And from those interviews were able to create a very specific profile, but also get very good insights into some of the issues that they were having or thoughts that they were having around, you know, around the specifics problem that were solving, which then gave us more ideas for content creation and new campaigns. 

Sofie Lehrmann (32:02):

And luckily we did that because that made us in that startup around having 150 leads per month or more with a 15% conversion rate based on those customer interviews. So going back to basics, activating it with the right channels where they are, of course, testing not everything we did in the start was great, but you fine tune it around the core, meaning the issues and that were able to solve and that they were facing. So, yes, that's how you can draw from your experience in other setups such as big companies. Yes. 

Sofie Lehrmann (33:05):

And I would say that the fact that I been able to manage different lead generation tactics and creating results definitely gave me, you know, the ticket to become the CMO of a company because I had the branding experience, but I also had experience and insights in the startup world on how to generate leads inbounds. And I could talk about a very good conversion rate that we had. The different campaigns showcased the different creatives that was done around that. 

Sofie Lehrmann (33:54):

So making a move from being ahead of content and brand over to head of marketing you need to be able to showcase results that you've created in your previous experience, you know, so that's, you know, that's a big takeaway and you do not stop there, you know, you do not stop just being content with that and like, okay, I create those results because then you get into another role where you need to create a more results. So in my role as a CMO for the new company, for the company that I work for, it was all about leads, again, leads, leads. It was early startup and I was alone in the start and then I was able to build the team. 

Sofie Lehrmann (34:58):

So to say that I was a CMO is maybe too fancy, but that's how you call it in this sort of ecosystem, because you're part of the founding team, you're part of making important strategic decisions even though the team is very small. And then you grow with the company. So revenue is king, definitely in startups. And it's understandable because obviously you start from, you know, from the product, then you want to have the product market fit and then you need to make repeatable sales cycle. You know, that's the third phase. And most of the startups, the early startups, they struggle to get that going, the repeatable sales cycle. And then only when you have that confirmed, then you start to grow and then scale and then you become more marketing led. 

Sofie Lehrmann (36:08):

But what most startups don't realize that you always start with the brand, you always start with awareness, finding out what's our vision, what's our point of view in the market, what's our values, how do we want to show up, how do we want to be perceived. Obviously, you can't control that, but you need to have an idea of it and then you activate because there's so much rush. In the startup environment, the brand is often perceived as something, I would say, lipstick like colors and logos and snap. You can do that in a day, right? Or we just, you know, we just hire freelance who can do it in a week. So the more in depth work is definitely not prioritized. And I would even go so far and say, in early startups, the real CMO is the founder is the CEO. 

Sofie Lehrmann (37:20):

You follow what the CEO wants. And this is where personal growth and professional growth happen. This is where you learn to say, no, that's not correct, or you will be even sometimes, you know, your confidence can also go down. That happened to me when you try to mold in the, or fit in. So finding that balance between, okay, I know what I'm talking about, I know that this would be good for your company. 

Sofie Lehrmann (37:58):

It's not because I'm like, oh, we need to do the brand, but this is actually where you need to start before activating all of the different channels that you're talking about, but then also trying to find creative ways persuasive, you know, being more persuasive to the CEO so he can understand the language that we're talking, you know, because often CEO's and cmos, they're like sitting in two different games, not talking the same language, creating more and more distrust. So definitely they knew the brand was important, just not a priority. Revenue, sales led. So marketing becomes like an extra arm for sales, doing sales tax, setting up campaigns to generate more leads, and organizing events or dinners or whatever, you know, whatever you need to do. So yes, that's part of the CMO role in startup. It's ruthless. 

Sofie Lehrmann (39:23):

It's definitely not for the thin-skinned, but you can build resilience, obviously, you know, over time. It also depends what kind of CEO that you're working with. But I would definitely say yes. Sales-led startups, the skills that you need to hone is obviously your data skills. Giving overview in very simple terms. CEOs and decision-makers in startups they don't understand marketing. They don't, even though they say they do, defending your ideas. Sometimes you just need to say, okay, and then do it anyways. You know, if you have strong convictions about it, obviously not like, oh, let me spend like 50k on something. I'd be like, oops, it didn't work out. But I have done that. You know, I have said, okay, well, I'll try this out. 

Sofie Lehrmann (40:30):

And you know, that's the beauty of when you have a CEO who trusts you and then we'll let you say, okay, I'll, you know, whatever you're deciding, I trust that, you know, you're doing, you know, to get great results. Yes. 

Mita Mandawker (40:54):

That was an extremely detailed overview of how each of your roles and each of your, you know, responsibilities look like at, you know, startups and scale ups. And it was very enlightening for me as well to understand like how does a CMO role look like at an early-stage startup? Because we have a very different vision of how a CMO role looks like because typically, you know, you feel like it's a larger, I mean, you're sitting in a, you're a part of C suite or you will be doing things a lot differently. But apparently that's not always the case. You have to roll up your sleeves. You have to get a lot of things done. 

Mita Mandawker (41:32):

You are going to be in the weeds whether you're owning revenue or you are revenue minus one, like at lead gen, kind of a, you know, that's the KPI you own. But the fact remains the same that there's a lot of, how do I put this? There is always going to be internal marketing that you'll have to do. It's a little, it's a little fresh off my, on my mind, internal marketing then just trying to find that balance wherein you are able to bring in the short term, you know, goals that you're achieving, most importantly bringing in the revenue or the leads, and also balancing it with the long term approach, which is building brand, because that's what ultimately matters at the end of the day as well, that you also optimize for the long term vision of the company.

Sofie Lehrmann (42:19):

So yeah, I was the biggest challenge that CMOs, whether you're in startups or in scale-ups or in bigger companies, finding that balance between tactics and long-term strategic initiatives, that's, you know, that's where the huge challenge is because CMOs are so pressured today to deliver quick results. And, you know, it's a question about training. Some of the CMOs have a long 20 years of experience, 30 years of experience, and they don't know much about new channels, you know, how to analyze data. So being top of that, very important. And then of course, there's also the whole trust issue then you have from CEOs that don't trust their CMOs to do the right job. 

Sofie Lehrmann (43:26):

But I would say for startups, but also big, well, scale-ups and bigger companies, is to have the big picture, hire great people who can do the job that you can't. You know, it's been said so many times, you know, on podcasts, you see it all the time. LinkedIn but it is so true. When I hired people, you know, across my career and also in my role in the early startup as a CMO, I hire people who are much better than me in their field and someone that I can see grow quickly. So yes, hiring great people who can get the job done grow at the same time. So having the big picture, not being afraid to roll up your seas, that's for sure. 

Sofie Lehrmann (44:27):

Keep educating yourself, keep having very transparent discussions, conversations with the C suite around expectations that you have to the role. That's something that honestly I would do again, have more transparent conversations about expectations because a lot of times in startups, KPIs, it's only around the campaigns, around what results we need to create. So your professional objectives, you know, or more around the tactical stuff per quarter. It's not around what error. Why are you going to, you know, generate on annual basis? It's very short-term focused. And there's some things in marketing, such as when you launch an author leadership program or when you do an SEO strategy, you can expect incredible, remarkable results after two, three months. Right. So the patience element is a pain point for marketers when they're working with the C suite. 

Sofie Lehrmann (46:11):

But it's, you know, it's definitely something that the CMOs and marketers can get around by having those conversations being very clear in terms of how does this bring value to our customers, how does this bring value to our business goals. So those are, you know, questions that you always need to ask yourself whenever you do an activity and then have the same conversation with the C suite around. This initiative will bring value, high value to our customer. It will require some effort from our company. So, but because it will generate x amount of projected revenue, we will be doing this initiative. So always assess the different initiatives that you're doing. Defending them out from value to customer versus costs and efforts that are done in the company. 

Mita Mandawker (47:25):

Makes sense. I think that's an approach that all marketers need to take irrespective of level. That I think a better word to maybe put it would be like the unit economics of a campaign. You need to educate the leadership, you need to educate your bosses. You're a CMO or you're a marketing manager. You have to, you have to give a very clear picture on unit economics. Otherwise, it's not easy for them to understand what's the impact that you're trying to drive with that campaign. Once the unit economics are very clear, they're very set. It's easy for you to build a case. It's easy for them to understand expectations. It's easy to meet, you know, somewhere midway in terms of, you know, what they are expecting, what's feasible, what's possible with the kind of resources that are shared as well. 

Sofie Lehrmann (48:12):

So yes and saying no, learning to say no. I've had so many requests last minute from, you know, across my career, not, none of the bigger companies, because it's organized in a different way. So many requests marketing get, you know, like last minute, like, can you make me this one page? Can we do this video? I saw our competitor do it, so. And because it's the CEO saying, being like, yeah, this is, you know, we need to do it. And it's just like you stop thinking at some moment in time, then you just do it. And this is where marketing and CMOs, they need to step back and be like, does this really bring value to the customer? How much effort would that require from the company? Let's stop to be pleasers and let's be more. 

Sofie Lehrmann (49:14):

Let's guide the CEOs and help them see that, you know, we need to do something that's good for the customers but also for the company. You know, that's not, you know, burnt to, you know, they can't learn both ends. Ends. Yes. The requests today are just insane. Insane. The marketing. 

Mita Mandawker (49:44):

I've not met one marketer who's not had this complaint. Every single time. It's the same thing that, you know, there are so many last-minute requests. Everyone wants to, you know, get their request in first. They want it like last, they want it like yesterday and everything important. 

Sofie Lehrmann (50:03):

I think it's very important for marketers, you know, having those kind of requests saying, we have a roadmap. If we're doing something beyond that, what would you suggest that we remove from the roadmap instead? 

Mita Mandawker (50:24):

I think that's the best way of addressing it, yes. So it has to happen at a cost, right? You can't just keep on piling on things. No quality is going to drop. 

Sofie Lehrmann (50:36):

Yes, yes. 

Mita Mandawker (50:39):

Perfect, perfect. I think one thing that I have taken away from the conversation and from a lot of things that you've shared today has been, you know, the whole art of balancing data-driven decisions and understanding your customers. And I think it also comes from the fact that you had your background is in market research. You spent a sizable chunk of time in management consulting, wherein you were also mandated to do like similar work. And you work very closely with customers even then. So I would want to understand a little bit more about, you know, how do you place customer centricity in everything that you do in marketing? Would be lovely if you could, you know, talk about this approach with a successful campaign that you've had anything of that sort. Customer centricity. 

Sofie Lehrmann (51:28):

Whenever I start on a project, I always start with the customer issues. Who's the customer? What are they looking for? Why would they choose our product? Why would they choose our services? What keeps them up at night? What do they currently have as solutions today? Why would they consider switching, you know, what profiles are more like the personal one, but I wouldn't go into B2B. It's not so much about the emotions. It is important the emotions, but not as much as in B2C, but definitely around what generation they belong to. So having a very clear picture of who they are, where they're from, what they want, how they want it, and all going back to the pain points and doing market research, and not just like, oh, we did market research two years ago, so we're good. Let's go. 

Sofie Lehrmann (52:48):

No, it's updating your market research because the market is evolving so quickly in startup and scale ups. Take what's available. That means you download analyst reports, McKinsey, Gartner, Forrester, you name it. And then you combine it with customer interviews. Or if you don't have a, you know, a customer yet, then you do ideal customer interviews that you can set up, you know, give them a gift card or something, you know, like a voucher, $100 gift card to Amazon, for example. We did that in the past in startups, and it starts there before you launch any bigger project. 

Sofie Lehrmann (53:47):

The example that I can give you for market research that went really well, or for the customer centric approach that went really well, was the startup where we saw that all of the different messages that we send out for lead generation, different campaigns that we did across different channels, digital channels, didn't work. It didn't bite. So we had to go back to basics. That's the exam, like gave previously, where we had like 15% in conversion rate. Once we had insights around what the customer, you know, had as pain points and what they were looking for from a new vendor, why they would consider someone as us, what would that require? And I can also give you an example of what didn't really work well, is that we did a bigger sprint campaign in an early startup where we didn't take the time. 

Sofie Lehrmann (54:58):

I would say we didn't have the time. We didn't take the time. It's always a question about priorities, right? We didn't take the time to interview ideal buyer personas. So were just shooting for the moon. Spend thousands of dollars on campaigns with two, three leads that never converted. And that's the reality today at startups, that if you don't do the basics, you can't expect remarkable results, you know, and I always, and it's the same, if you don't have a great product, you can't make great marketing, you know, but that's another, you know, that's another conversation. But being customer centric obviously means that you're designing your programs for the customer, that you're designing the experience to meet their needs, that you're designing your website that talks about them and not you and your solution or how this technically is, you know, set up. 

Sofie Lehrmann (56:25):

Yes, important information, but it shouldn't be upfront right away. Talk about the value that you're bringing to your customers. So that's how I'm approaching marketing and startups. So focusing on the value that you create for your customers, always having those important conversations with ideal customers or ideal buyers. I worked in a startup where none of that happened and the results were not good. So and staying always having, you know, looking for obviously trends and industry developments because you know, it keeps changing all the time and so does the customer.